In less than a week of running the Alfine-11 Di2 on my daily commute I’ve encountered nearly every failure mode known to the internet. I have only myself to blame.
Alfine’s (arguably) lesser reliability compared with Rohloff isn’t news to me. A quick internet search reveals many complaints about Alfine hubs in general and the Alfine-11 in particular (there seems to be some consensus that the –8 is more robust). In my decidedly unscientific survey, far more complaints than I see for other Internally Geared Hubs, though to be fair, most complaints are in mountain biking forums and even I don’t consider Alfine a good choice for that. The complaints include skipping, missed gears, gears that take ages to engage after shifting, suddenly and randomly popping out of gear, having to shift one past and then back down to the intended gear to get it to engage, and alarming clicks and pops while pedaling. In less than a week I went from shifting nirvana to having all of these problems.
How could this be? Sure, I was aware of people having these problems before going down this road but most of them seemed to be a by-product of a design where the indexing is handled at the shifter and then transmitted through a long and error-prone mechanical cable to the hub itself. In the case of a recumbent, a very long run. In my mind this is exactly what the Di2 electronic shift technology is designed to fix for Alfine, effectively putting the indexing at the hub where it belongs while adding fast and precise shifts and shifter designs optimized for performance and comfort instead of constrained by a mechanical cable. What I had instead was rapid and ergonomic shifting from one randomly failing gear to another. At it’s worst I might have ended up walking the trike home if not for the Big Black Lab with me who was more than happy to drag me and the trike along for the ride.
Fearing the worst, I called Shimano Customer Service, 1-800-423-2420, for any insight they might have and to explore the possibility of a warranty return. I’ll admit I had pretty low expectations for this call. When I talked recently with the designer of the TRIOT, I asked him why he had specified the Rohloff hub instead of the Alfine for his design. His answer was that Shimano wouldn’t talk to him. If they wouldn’t talk to a bona-fide trike manufacturer, what were the odds they would talk to an individual trike owner like me? So imagine my surprise when I was immediately connected to an extremely knowledgeable and accommodating Shimano Customer Service representative. But the biggest surprise of this call wasn’t the technical competence and excellent product knowledge of the Shimano rep. Nor was it the fact that even his technical knowledge couldn’t solve my problem over the phone. The surprise was that I began the call thinking I had a problem with a hub and ended it thinking my problem was ever considering Alfine in the first place.
The gist of the problem comes down to what this Shimano rep (at least) considers acceptable use of the Alfine hubs. Pulling a trailer? No. Carrying a child? No. Off-road? Racing? Touring? No, no, no. Standing up on the pedals? Be careful. Temperatures below 30 degrees F? Uncharted territory. Big hills? No. Seriously, he said that. And he admitted you won’t find any of these constraints documented by Shimano. He said the way to look at it is that the name of the component group suggests its intended use, in this case Comfort or Pavement depending on where you look. Apparently these terms mean something different to Shimano than they do to me. I was surprised that he didn’t balk at recumbent but suspect this just reflects how thoroughly uninterested the big guys are in this niche. I don’t mean to shoot the messenger here, I sincerely appreciate that he was willing to talk to me at all and am most impressed with his knowledge and insight. But his message, Shimano’s message, seems silly to me. He summed it up thus: “The Alfine hub is really intended for easy commuting, like riding to the beach.”
I get that different component groups are designed for different types of riding and that, say, a road component might not be the best choice for a single-track trail. But design limits for an 11-speed hub as narrow as “flat ride to the beach” seem hardly worth the effort. Even if I manufactured beach cruisers I’m not sure I’d want Alfine on it if that’s really the extent of it’s expected performance. Perhaps I’m overstating it a bit but I’m beginning to connect the dots: Seemingly less reliable than Rohloff, rarely found on anything but “city bikes”, narrow and undocumented design limits— maybe this thing really isn’t up to the task. Maybe no IGH is up to the task.
In a cruel twist of fate, my hub is now working perfectly. It turns out the Alfine CS-S500 sprocket I used is not intended for Di2. (In my defense this part number is clearly called out in the Alfine Di2 product spec, but either the SM-GEAR sprocket (whatever that is, I’ve never seen one) or a Nexus sprocket is a better bet.) The CS-S500 includes an outer plastic chain guard that rubs against the Di2 motor housing. It sort of works but adds a lot of friction and prevents the motor from seating properly against the hub. I knew this wasn’t right when I first assembled the wheel but at the time was more concerned about bench-testing the Di2 system and secured the motor finger-tight. Then I got distracted with the holidays, frustrated with my ever-frozen mechanical cable, and undone by an ill-conceived, late-night Di2 install. When I popped the wheel off to see what was going on with my shifting, the axle nuts and the motor itself had obviously loosened up. It’s pretty apparent that this, not the “extreme” 15 degree cold, was the source of my shifting woes. The fix was simple enough—rip off the plastic chain guide from the sprocket and secure the motor properly.
Right now, my Alfine Di2 setup performs better than I’d hoped. Shifts are quick, precise, reliable, and nearly silent. The shifter is comfortable and shifts without the obnoxious CLICK!!!! and random performance of my SRAM grip shifter. It shifts in cold weather! It shifts while stopped! The display is useful, easy to read, and out of the way. The cable routing could be extremely clean, mostly invisible.
Now what? Cut my losses and go back to external gears? Try yet another IGH? Or press on with Alfine, ignoring the mounting evidence that it’s not a question of if it will fail, but when.
How do you forget a conversation like the one I had with Shimano?
A Seasonal Commute 
It’s amazing to me that a major manufacturer would produce a very expensive component with such narrow performance limitations.
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I had a similar experience. Bought a marin cycles ‘fairfax SC4′ which is just an aluminium road bike, slightly above average quality, excellent geometry and brakes BUT FUCKED UP 8-SPEED ALFINE. It worked fine for about 8-12 months, until it started slipping under load in all gears. There is a steep hill near my house that I needed to drop down to 3 to climb. When i first got it, it worked great. Now it wont get up the hill without slipping in ANY gear, even 1. Worst still, when I have to accelerate suddenly, to get out of the way of a car, it slips and puts me in danger of getting run over. THIS IS BAD. The problem is with the so-called one-way clutches (OWC’s) which look like roller bearings except they roll one way, but when they are rotated the other way, the rollers roll up a slight ramp and they jam- or at least they are supposed to. OWC’s are notoriously sensitive to manufacturers quality control. Most experienced Industrial engineers use japanese and chinese bearings for a lot of applications, and with good results, but they will only use American or Swiss (Aescap brand) roller clutches because the performance of these things is so sensitive to very small (5-10%) changes in friction coefficients. I solved my slipping problems briefly by drilling a hole in my hub and squirting WD40 in to it, but the solution was short lived. I only did it to confirm that the problem was the roller clutches. When I worked for Lightnin’ mixers in Sydney in the mid 1980’s we had terrible problems with these things- in the end we replaced them with hydraulic ‘sprag’ clutches. If anyone out there knows how to get these things to be reliable, and can also speak FLUENT japanese, then there is probably a highly paid job waiting for you at Shimano HQ. I know the japanese engineers wont solve the problem because even if the young ones know how to overcome it, they must wait for the older ones to die. I think the culture is called Senpai-kohai or something similar (means ‘junior must respect senior’). But every culture has its weak points- australian work culture is rife with bullying and ‘reverse quality circles’- groups of people who ‘race each other to the bottom’. Woe betide the person who tells management about this, they will be branded a ‘dobber’ (like a ‘snitch’).
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Clearly the market for town bikes is growing. But I wonder how much difference they think there is between a well used city bike, and normal use on road or mountain bike. I would think not much. If that’s true, then it seems there’s not much design margin for its intended use. It’s a shame that it might not hold up under anything but ideal conditions. It is such a great design with features that make it the ideal shifting system. Too bad you have to bear the risk and expense to test their hub for a more mainstream application.
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Shimano’s position on Alfine is perplexing, and impossible to validate without reverse-engineering and second-guessing their hub design, something I’m not really qualified to do. So I guess I’ve become an unpaid Shimano test pilot. With no parachute.
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I am so glad I found this post. I am getting ready to enter the world of trikes and have only ridden four so far. Of the four I rode, the best for me was an Azub Tricon. However, I have severe wrist problems (which is why it seems that an upright bike is not going to work for me anymore). The hardest decision for me will be what style of shifters to install on the trike. Every option has its own inherent threat to my wrist. The dealer finally suggested that I might be interested in the Shimano Di2/ Alfine set-up. I gave not tried a trike with it installed but I will be able to at the end of next week. However, after reading your post, I don’t think I want it. I intend to do more than flat pavement.
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You might want to consider Ultegra Di2 instead of Alfine, but using the Alfine shifter. That’s what I ended up doing and it’s working out well. If you read some later posts you’ll see what I did. The fist thing you might want to do is check out the Alfine shifter and make sure it works with your wrist problems. For me, it’s by far the most comfortable shifter I’ve used.
Kurt
Here’s a link to my post about the Ultegra Di2 build:
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Pingback: The Trouble with Alfine | A Seasonal Commute
Reblogged this on Kite*Surf*Bike*Rambling and commented:
Reading about issues with the alpine 11 makes me realise why i would never use one for off road touring (and now touring of any kind)
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Hi. Internal gears in my case are always compromise. Road levers Shimano Alfine got Versa shifters which to be honest works like something made in the shed or during industrial revolution. DI shifting is not for me really, as I want to do a bit of touring without problems with charging. Rohlhoff hasn’t got really any elegant solution for drop handlebars. Don’t get me wrong I like diy big time but all the solutions I found on internet look a bit awkward. Compromise, compromise, compromise. Thanks for sharing some thoughts.
Keep’em rolling
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I’m with you regarding internally geared hubs. I’m still holding out hope for the Schlumpf because it elegantly solves the 20″ drive wheel problem while simultaneously eliminating the ever-annoying front derailleur, but my track record with IGH is pretty dismal so far. In contrast, Di2 has been a huge success (so far). My criteria for all of this stuff is that it has to work well for long, self-supported tours. Battery life was a big concern but at this point it’s looking like about three months between charges (with significant safety margin) for my daily commuting and recreational rides. It will be less on tour but a month seems pretty easy to attain. Of course I won’t really know until I try it on a tour, but right now I wouldn’t hesitate. As I get more data on Di2 battery life I’ll post it here: https://seasonalcommute.com/di2-battery-life/
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You might want to consider the Efneo GTRO instead of the Schlumpf Drive. It gives you the equivalent of a 28 – 40 – 50 chainring without having to chamfer your Bottom Bracket Housing. Shifts are immediate. I was quite impressed.
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@daytriker, now at about 6.5 years and 10K miles I’m pretty happy with my Schlumpf DualDrive. It’s been rock-solid with the only maintenance being occasional addition of a small dab (2.5 ml) of lube. Of course I might change my tune if it fails tomorrow. What I like most is the lack of a mechanical shift cable. With the Schlumpf, DI2, and hydraulic brakes I have zero mechanical cables. And near-zero maintenance once I swapped my junk Tektro hydraulic brakes for Shimano.
If I were looking now the Efneo would be on my short list. I think I was aware of it when I pulled the trigger on the Schlumpf but I’m not sure if it was available then.
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Just a heads up. I had my alfine 8 for two years and started developing problems 6 months ago where certain gears in the higher rang (5,6,7,8) would not engage smoothly and where the 8th gear began continuously clicking. . Adjust was spot on. I just fixed the problem today by changing out the cable and it works perfectly. I opened the hub 8 months ago and everything inside was pristine and well greased. The reason why changing the cable worked so well is that once you get into the higher gears on the alfine the tension in the shifter cable increases causing it to stretch more and be less accurate in the higher gears. This is many alfine users a have issues in the higher gears. Cannot believe that the cable change was so simple, easy, cheap, and effective. Should be the second troubleshooting step after checking adjustment. Best of luck to everyone!!!
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Thanks Nate!
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I have a bike with 3speed sram hub and never had an issue love it. but need more low end, so i’m after a new bike, and really want alfine 11 so much, along with a carbon drive, … but day after day reading through all these internet blogs and discussion on forums really makes me to drop this idea and go with standard messy dirty gunked up sand collecting derailor.
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If Alfine had bought me belt drive on my recumbent, I would have sucked it up and figured out how to make it work. I still sometimes regret not giving Alfine-11 another try (it was a dream while it worked), but without belt drive the gain just isn’t worth the risk. You might consider Alfine-8, which anecdotally (at least) appears to be more robust than the -11. Either way, I highly recommend Di2, which for me is a bigger gain than internal gears. Note that my inability to run belt drive is a limitation of most recumbents, not the Alfine.
Of course another option is Rohloff. I never went down that path because of the cost and the desire to decrease, not increase, the number of mechanical cables in my system. But it has a pretty solid reputation for reliability as far as I can tell.
Other options for belt drive include combinations of lower-range internally-geared rear hubs with a 2-speed Schlumpf drive on the crank.
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Hi,
and thanks for the great review! I just ordered a cube commuter with gates belt and Alfine 8. However, I will be riding it in Finland during wintertime (usually somewhere around -5, but the occasional -25 celsius temps), and I was wondering how the internal lubrication and oil work in the cold? Is there a risk that the oil “clogs” the gears when it’s cold? How about the internal resistance? Will it increase significantly on a cold day…? Any experiences?
Thanks!
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Hi Panu,
The Alfine-8 uses grease for lubrication vs. the oil bath employed in the -11. A complaint I’ve seen about the -8 is water contamination but I’m not sure about cold temps and don’t have any direct experience with the -8. The Sheldon Brown site has some excellent information about lubrication of the hub, https://www.sheldonbrown.com/nexus-mech.html. And if you search for “alfine-8 lubrication” you’ll find a post from someone who converted the -8 to oil lubrication. I wouldn’t recommend doing this but it has some good detail about hub disassembly if you go down that path. I don’t include the link here because it appears to have a sketchy link embedded in it. With grease lubrication I’d expect the -8 to be more affected by cold temps than the -11 but, again, I have no experience with it.
In my brief experience with the -11 I vaguely recall some minor “sluggishness” in below-freezing temps but this quickly turned into the hub failure described here: https://seasonalcommute.com/2015/02/22/the-trouble-with-alfine/.
So it’s hard to say whether the sluggishness was related to the cold, just a symptom of an already failing hub, or all in my head. Or whether the cold contributed to the failure. Shimano’s advice on cold temperatures certainly wasn’t encouraging (see above).
Good luck!
kurt
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Just to note, I don’t think the tone shift from ‘it’s working perfectly now’ to ‘no if, but when it will fail’ is right.
Also I have been using my Alfine 8 for three intensive years. One year ago I got a long flat-bed trailer, and have been pushing people weighing up to 80kg. The hubs been perfectly fine.
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appbeza,
Glad to hear you’ve had a good experience with Alfine-8, you’re luckier than me. Regarding my tone, you’re missing the point. Expecting the hub to fail after being told by Shimano that nearly every one of my use cases exceeds the hub’s design goals and testing is completely rational. Expecting reliability of your Alfine-8 to be particularly relevant to my -11 is not, they are substantially different designs.
A few posts later you’ll see that the hub catastrophically failed after about a hundred miles. I’ve happily moved on.
kurt
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Buy a Rohloff. 80,000km and counting, zero issues ever, 3 x 24 hour mtb enduro races, 10 x 12 hour mtb enduro races, a Wildside mtb stage Race, 15 years of daily commuting, 7 extended cycle tours, including hauling a loaded bob trailer off road…..and now its the only bit remaining of the original bike build.
My wifes commuter has a alfine11….started playing up- misshifting, crunching, etc, after 600 km of flat commuting. Its a piece of shit.
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Hi Kurt, count me as one of the IGH fans as well – sort of. I’ve had an Alfine 11 on my HPV Gekko for about 6, almost 7 years now. Once a year I would change the oil (ATF) & give it a once over. Check the cable, clean & make any adjustments needed. I have been using this hub with a 500 watt Mid Drive & a 42 tooth chain ring with a 20 tooth rear sprocket. My experience with the hub had been nothing but positive. Never had any problems with mis-shifts, delayed engagements or substantial crunching. (Sometimes an unfocused shift might cause a scrunch but that was it) I had become so complacent about my hub & it’s dependability that I wouldn’t hesitate to go on tours with it. Fly down mountain roads with it. Just jump on & ride – ANYTIME. Until this year, year 7. Somehow, I had lost all my oil. Not sure how or where. Maybe it was a Senior Moment & I forgot to re-fill it but it was pretty dry with only a drop showing out the drain hole. I flushed out the hub as usual & refilled with ATF & it seemed to be fine. Until it started making noises. Bad noises & on some occasions a bad shift. Mostly though it seemed fine so I kept riding. I even went on a 3 day tour with a camping load & pulling a light weight trailer. The noises got worse & I ended up cautiously riding home. Just to test my mettle, the end of our ride required a 2 km climb to the top of the town of Ladysmith, BC. Otherwise known as Canada’s San Francisco. Stay tuned as I’ll be reporting on the outcome of taking the hub apart & it’s condition.
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Wow Daytriker, that is an impressive track record for the Alfine but sorry it seems to have come to an end. Would love to see the report on your teardown.
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Well I took the hub apart & it is toast. The bearings are burnt, the ball bearing race on the left side of the hub had about 2 mm of vertical play in it & about 4 mm of side to side play. This is the race & bearing assembly that can be replaced for about $15. The middle needle bearing assembly wasn’t worn too badly & could probably be saved. The far right outer needle bearing assembly was also worn pretty badly. All bearings are discoloured from being heated up. Maybe during my 74 km/hr. run down a mountain road. The hub itself has score marks all through the inside which look like they could be caused by the bearings chattering against the inside of the hub. Since the hub still shifts reasonably well I am guessing the lack of oil is what caused this failure. All the teeth on the gears look fine. It might be something to consider since these hubs can leak oil, maybe the grease lubricated hubs are a better choice. They seem to have a record of better longevity.
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Daytriker, my impression too is that the -8 is considered more reliable than the -11but that the grease lubrication is more susceptible to water incursion than the -11 with the oil bath. But all that seems pretty anecdotal. It sounds like you may be able to repair your -11, is that your plan or will you need to replace it? Seems like a fairly minor issue if you’re able to repair it inexpensively without having to rebuild your wheel.
How many miles do you have on the hub?
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Hi Kurt, I estimate 6 – 7000 miles on the hub so not impressed with the longevity. Of course, this was due to my failure to keep the hub well lubricated but the loss still stings. 🙂 I have 2 options, replace the inner workings for $350. u.s. or buy a new hub for $600. including having it built into a rim. Since the hub (shell) is scored from the dry bearings, I am reluctant to just replace the innards. Right now I am feeling finished with Alfine hubs but not Internal Gear Hubs altogether. I believe they have their place but maybe more for a city or commuter rider unless you have $2000. for a Rohloff or Kindernay. I still have my Nexus 7 speed (with grease) for local riding & would like to try a Sturmey Archer hub which they claim are for heavy duty use. At least if the S/A blows up it’s only a $200. loss. The SX-RK3 hubs seem to be pretty bulletproof with owners claiming to put 5000 watts through their hubs.
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Hi Daytriker, that definitely stings. Mid-drives put more load on the drivetrain so it wouldn’t surprise me if Alfine really isn’t up to the task. That’s what the Shimano rep basically told me (above) and what began my journey away from it. That and it failed in about 100 miles, no motor involved :). But it’s a sweet hub when it’s working.
I ran a DualDrive hub for a few years and the SA CS-RF3 for a brief time. Both where pretty great. I got rid of them because they tended to rattle in annoying ways, something most people probably wouldn’t notice, especially on an upright. My head is pretty close to the rear hub on my recumbent. I probably could have addressed the noise if I’d been inclined.
Good luck getting back on the road. Would love to hear what you wind up figuring out.
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For now I am going back to my derailleur drive train that came with my trike. I am considering the Sturmey Archer X-FR8W 8 speed hub for that massive 136.8 G.I. Top Gear (on a 20 inch wheel) but not finding much online about owner experiences with this hub. At best it seems reviews are mixed and what is there is 10 or more years old. I am considering this hub because it does not have under drive gears which I think is the weak point for most Internal Gear Hubs making them subject to torque damage.
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Daytriker, have you looked at the 3×3 Nine? https://bikerumor.com/3×3-nine-no-maintenance-internal-gear-hub/
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First I have heard of them so thank you for that. Sounds like just what the industry needs is a bulletproof hub that can handle heavy duty use. Shame we won’t be able to get our hands on one for at least a year.
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Yeah it just popped up in a feed today, first I’d heard of it too. Looks interesting.
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> The CS-S500 includes an outer plastic chain guard that rubs against the Di2 motor housing.
The CS-S500 sprocket is actually available with OR without chainguard, in 18T and 20T – 4 versions in total. The recommended chain is: HG 9-speed.
The SM-GEAR comes without a chainguard, and is available in a wider range: 16T 18T 19T 20T 21T 22T 23T. The recommended chain is: HG single-speed (1/2″ x 1/8″).
Shimano’s compatibility chart mentions both CS-S500 and SM-GEAR for Alfine-11. One or the other is recommended, depending on the frame dropout designs: https://productinfo.shimano.com/#/com?cid=C-470&acid=C-470
For e-bikes, there’s another compatibility chart, e.g. here’s one for the STEPS E6100 (scroll down to Internal geared hub spec): https://productinfo.shimano.com/#/com?cid=C-431&acid=C-657
The dealer’s manual also mentions both CS-S500 and SM-GEAR:https://si.shimano.com/en/pdfs/dm/S7051/DM-S7051-06-ENG.pdf
It mentions that the CS-S500 can only be used on models without a chain guide.
The sprocket is dished and can be installed in two orientations, inwards or outwards, resulting in a different chainline. This should be chosen based to match the chainline of the chainring. But, the dealer’s manual mentions that the outward assembling of the sprocket is only possible when using the MU-UR510 motor unit.
Additionally, there are also 3 models of compatible Di2 motor units: older MU-S705 (EW-SD50 wire), newer MU-UR500 (EW-SD50 wire), newest MU-UR510 (EW-SD300 wire).
So, with all the available options and the special conditions, there are a lot of things to watch out for. It seems that you’ve ran into one of incompatible combinations.
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